RHODE ISLAND COMMISSIONER OF EDUCATION
The following transcript has been edited for length and clarity.
Dr. Kishimoto
Hi, Angélica. So great to see you. Oh my god, a fellow New Yorker!
Dr. Infante-Green
That’s absolutely correct. I’m so happy to see you.
Dr. Kishimoto
So, there’s nothing I enjoy more than talking to fellow New Yorkers. As a child who grew up in New York City, I’m so excited to have this time to speak with you. Because you also have a whole history in New York as a student, teacher, and leader. And you were Deputy Commissioner for the state of New York. And now you’re the commissioner of education in the state of Rhode Island. And I have a lot of orgullo for you and the work that you’re doing. So thank you for being with me today.
Dr. Infante-Green
Well, thank you for having me. And the feeling is the same.
Dr. Kishimoto
I think women across the country love hearing the stories of women in leadership, education leadership, and education policy leadership. Why don’t we start with you just talking about what it has been like? Have you brought a little bit of the New Yorker into your role as the leader in education in Rhode Island?
Dr. Infante-Green
Absolutely! You know, I can’t deny that I’m a New Yorker. I grew up my entire life in Washington Heights. I taught in the Bronx. It is who I am. People come up to me here and say, “Hey, JLo. Now I know I don’t look like JLo, so I ask them, Why would you say that? And it’s the New York kind of vibe that they’re really talking about. And it’s me. It’s who I am. So that means I speak fast because I’m a New Yorker. And I’m Dominican. And I am unapologetic about what I care about and what I’m going to do. You know, New Yorkers have a sense of urgency, which is present in my work here. So you can hear it in the way that I talk and the way that I carry myself. I am definitely a New Yorker. I was actually in a meeting where someone stopped and said: she’s not angry; she’s just talking. That’s just New Yorkers.
Dr. Kishimoto
I love that. And as fellow New Yorkers, we all get that. It’s awesome and says a little bit about who we are.
What has it been like being in the top education policy seat in Rhode Island? We have about 50% of women leading at the state-level seat, and I’m happy to continue watching that trend. We also have an increase in the number of people of color leading in the seat, which is fantastic. And I’ll continue to watch that. But just overall, in general, what is it been like to lead in the seat?
Dr. Infante-Green
Well, I have to say it’s very lonely. I’m really grateful for my colleagues nationwide. You really can’t do this job well without some sort of support. That’s key. But you know, it’s hard. It’s hard for me because I don’t come from Rhode Island. I come from New York. So for the first year, I was still viewed as an outsider. And you have to deal with the politics of that. And this job is very political. Everybody thinks of education; you think about what you need to bring to the table. But it is a highly political job. It is a good 70% of the job. In order to do what you want to do, you have to be able to master that. Because that will make or break you. And that’s been one of the biggest lessons I’ve learned in this role.
Dr. Kishimoto
And you have been in this seat for four years, so you have longevity there. So even though you’re not from Rhode Island originally, you’ve had a good length of time there. And you’ve gotten yourself immersed and leading the public policy work in the education space. I’d love to hear a little more about that. In the last four years, what has been the policy agenda for you that has been prominent? And, what are some thoughts you have about what’s happening in that space?
Dr. Infante-Green
So, the last four years, aside from COVID, which everybody has been through, have been really difficult because the Governor that hired me left. Now I have a second governor, and I wasn’t sure if they would renew my contract. And the reason I share that with the things that I’m doing is that it matters when you work with certain governors, depending on whether you’re elected or nominated. So my Governor brought me in and really wanted to change our urban districts, really wanted to focus in on that area. And one of the first things we did was take over Providence as a state. And there really haven’t been too many success stories around that. And that was hard. It was one of the hardest things that I was doing. And I had to get community buy-in. So she was very instrumental in that. Then a new governor came in right in the midst of all that. I didn’t know if he was going to want to continue in that vein or not. But he has been very supportive. And in the midst of all that, we passed our secondary regss, which changed what students in secondary education would have to do to get a diploma. And that was very, very controversial. They tried to do something similar 15 years ago, and tons of people lost their jobs over it. And I was pushing this agenda while this Governor was getting elected. And we had a lot of conversations about how it would go. And he was very supportive. A lot of his advisors advised against us doing it. He supported me in doing that work. So it makes a difference who you work for.
But the big policy change is that right now, zip code doesn’t matter in Rhode Island. Before it did, before November. We changed it so that now all kids have to take computer science, and all kids have to be civic ready. We also mandated that kids take world languages. That was not mandated before. It depended on if you went to a more affluent district, then you got more World Languages. That is not the case anymore.
We also focused on FAFSA completion. I put it on there as an accountability measure. Kids have to have resumes starting in middle school. So it’s just a whole host of things. And then CTE for everyone, not just for certain kinds of kids, but everyone. You get a high school diploma, and you get a credential. So those are big things that we’ve been working on. And for each of them, I’ve gotten the buy-in of the people I’m working with. So that is really leveling the playing field for all our students. We brought in kids that had graduated and asked them what they needed that we didn’t give them. And they were clear. Financial literacy. They were going to college, incurring debt. They didn’t really have a handle on how money worked. So that is also a non-negotiable for us.
Dr. Kishimoto
I love the line – zip code doesn’t matter. Because we know how much that has mattered, right? Housing, education, and public policies have all been intertwined historically. And when a state like Rhode Island and its leader is intentionally trying to change what has historically been true across our country, that’s pretty powerful. And the areas that you’ve been focused on are policy areas that are at the very heart of how students are experiencing learning, how they’re developing their love of learning, and how they understand their own agency. And so the other part that I think was powerful and has been powerful about your work is the fact that you have taken the time to hear from students, what was their education experience like, and what does that tell you about what the system does well and doesn’t do well.
Dr. Infante-Green
Yeah, what’s been important for me is to listen. We all come in with ideas and how we want to do things. And somewhere along the way, you have to stop and say, okay, how does the end user feel about what we’re doing? And at the end of the day, it’s the students and the parents. And one of the things that I’ve been able to do in this role, one, because of the size of Rhode Island, is to bring kids in from all the districts virtually and have them talk. They would never have interaction with one another. And one of the things that was clear is that they care about their education, they care about what we’re doing, and they’re paying attention. They really don’t agree with a lot of the things that we believe or the controversy that’s out there. They’re not on board. This new generation is thinking in a very practical manner.
Dr. Kishimoto
One of the things that I love about policy work and why I get so excited about it is, often, we think of policy work in terms of the political side, right, the politics of it. But the other side of the policy work is the deep engagement you have to do. There are ideas you come to the table with, as you said, but at the same time, you have to put your ideas in the context of what the community wants. And you need to be driven by that. And so that’s what’s exciting about the policy work.
One of the challenges today is what we’re seeing around some of the divisive politics and whether or not that’s interrupting the other side of the policy work, which is the engagement side. We’re also seeing a diversification of our student body. Nationally, 54% of our students are students of color today. So what are your thoughts about how much that’s playing into the divisive politics around control of whose history is taught and what books are in the classroom and libraries, and all of these discussions interrupting the focus on the kids and who’s in seats today?
Dr. Infante-Green
It’s been very contentious the last few years. But one of the things we have done that has kept us in a good place on those conversations is that we continue to move forward. And I will tell you that I won’t engage in them. We have a calendar in my office that says September “book banning month” because we know somebody’s going to come out with a book banning and we’re ready for it. We’re ready. And at the end of the day, we have these answers, and we won’t go deep with people on that. And this is where my New Yorker comes into play.
Social studies standards it’s very controversial right now. What are we going to study? Who are we going to study? Listen, we’re gonna study history. Whether you feel comfortable or not, this is what history is. We just passed our social study standards in December. And, they wrote a report on how terrible it was, how woke it was, whatever language they have. And so what? Like, so what? I want somebody to tell me to my face that you can’t learn the history of my culture. I want you to say that to me. And they won’t. So the few conversations I’ve had have been very poignant and factual. You can’t engage in the emotion of it. You can’t engage in the other pieces of it. No, this is what we’re going to do. You have a choice. But you don’t get to choose what all kids learn. We get that you may want to impact your individual child, but you don’t get to choose what everybody learns. You can unlearn it at home if you want. But that’s not what we’re going to do in our school system. And that’s how I talk about it.
Dr. Kishimoto
What’s interesting is that research studies show a disconnect today between what elected leaders are pushing for and what the general public believes and is asking for. I happened to be at Powell Books, one of the largest independent bookstores that remain in the United States, and it’s in Portland, Oregon, and what a neat place. But one of the whole shelving areas, which is huge as you walk in, is a list and a display of all the banned books by month. And I thought, wow, there is a whole economic side of this that they’re taking advantage of. That shows that people are looking at this and buying books off the shelf. And so it shows the disconnect between the general public and what’s happening politically. But that’s what’s beautiful about public ed; that’s where we go head to head on the hard issues to say, what do we truly value? What do our kids need to be successful in the future? And how do we support them when they are given the agency to speak up and say what they’re thinking? Like you said, they don’t always see things like us, as adults, because they’re a different generation. And that’s a good thing.
So, what’s your view of where we head from here in terms of policy work and where you want to go next in Rhode Island?
Dr. Infante-Green
My main goal now as I move forward is math, but it’s also the equity agenda. We created an equity tool that we use at RIDE, the state organization, for every policy we put out there. And everybody here has to use it and make sure that we are moving in that direction. And then, our next goal is to have every district use that tool as they make decisions in their district. And that will be controversial. But we are doing it first to demonstrate and to make sure that everybody understands what we value. So we value kids reading and writing, which are very important. We value the social-emotional piece. But we also value opportunities and options for kids because we know that kids in poverty may or may not be able to go to college. So how do we help them get there?
We partnered with General Dynamic Electric Boat (GDEB), the primary builder of Navy submarines made in Rhode Island. Some of our 12th graders can get some of the skills, go to college, and still get a paycheck. And a number of them started at $50,000 part-time and are going to school. So it’s pretty amazing. So we’re working with industry and trying to make it a well-rounded education. And it looks a little different. And that’s been hard for me because I’ve always had this mindset: we all have to go to college and do these things. And college is not a straight line. It looks different for different people. And my job is to ensure that there are different opportunities and pathways to get there.
Dr. Kishimoto
You know, you’ve been in this position for several years. And so there’s a flow to your work, your partnerships, and who you turn to. So what do you say to Dr. Williams, who was just appointed as Commissioner of Ed in the state of Oregon, as she begins her first term serving in the state commissioner role?
Dr. Infante-Green
Be yourself because you will be pulled in so many different directions. Stay true to your core, wherever your core is. And it is about kids learning because that’s all we want is to give kids opportunities. So be who you’re going to be.
When I got here, I met with one of the ex-mayors. And he said to me, one of my greatest regrets was not doing things the way I wanted to. And you know, you are forced to make decisions you don’t feel comfortable with. Find a way, find a way, you can find a way. And that may mean having conversations that are difficult. You may have to play it a little differently. But you could still get to that endpoint. You just have to be able to maneuver the space in ways you never thought you’d do. And find some friends! Find some friends that are doing the same job. And stay tight because it’s a lonely job. And as women, we are tried every single day. Everybody’s always putting you to the test. And you’ll walk into spaces where it feels uncomfortable, right? Know that it’s not you. For all women, it’s not you. Don’t feel like there’s something wrong with you. But when you walk in, people are looking at you. People are expecting you either to say what they want or not. Every word, they’re going to hang on every word. But at the end of the day, you’re the expert. And that’s how you have to keep it. You have to rise above all of that.
Dr. Kishimoto
Great advice. Be yourself. So in closing, Angélica, are you feeling hopeful about the future? Are you feeling worried about the future?
Dr. Infante-Green
“Above all the things and all the noise, we keep moving forward. And that’s what makes me feel hopeful.”
I’m feeling very hopeful. With all the political going back and forth, the pendulum has always swung. We’ve learned a lot through the pandemic. I’ve learned a lot in my career. And I feel that we’re making strides. Above all the things and all the noise, we keep moving forward. And that’s what makes me feel hopeful. And the fact that there are more women in these jobs, that there are more women of color, more people of color, that is different. That says that no matter what people are saying, we are creating these opportunities. And our job is to make sure that we bring more people along with us. So I feel hopeful. Those conversations were happening all the time, just behind closed doors. Now they’re happening in public. Personally, I prefer that.
Dr. Kishimoto
So I am thrilled to have had some time with you, Dr. Angélica Infante-Green, New Yorker, now Rhode Island girl leading in the policy space at the national and state levels. We’re just so proud of your work, and your work is really impressive, and your work is really important. And we stand behind you as you continue to lead in this space and pave the path for others who come behind you.
Dr. Infante-Green
Thank you. And I do want to finish off by saying that you are one of my, I wouldn’t say, mentors but somebody that I look up to because you are a force to be reckoned with, and you give us all a lot of hope and space to continue to grow. So thank you.
Dr. Kishimoto
Thank you for sharing your story.
